Curse

Brian the Gladiator · Mar 25, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

I posted this in a Hero Battles thread and I thought it also applied to Alliance Battles. I want to know what all you ABers think about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian The Gladiator

Maybe the fact that Shrines are bad for the game kind of comes into play here.

HB and AB need to do away with the shrine capping = win match mentality.

I don't have a problem with shrines giving bonuses to teams that have them capped, but they definitely shouldn't be a direct influence on the points system.

Wouldn't it be nice if points were only gained based on killing foes, and shrines gave boosts which increase the ability to kill... so indirectly, capped shrines = more points... but in order for that to happen, you need to kill.

People may say... NO NO NO! /notsigned because that would mean everyone would run really defensive spirit N/Rt way and be dumb and stupid *cry cry sob*...

The fact of the matter is, that may be true. But unfortunately, that isn't the issue. If we eliminate the direct relationship of shrines to team score, we will also expose the flaws in game balance. Because of this truth, we automatically support a scoring system that undermines these very flaws... and we think that it works.

Unfortunately for me and many other people that play this game, the system in place isn't any fun!!! The only way to make it fun, is to make the necessary changes outlined in my post as well as balancing the game (which others before me have posted about numerous times).

This is the very reason why A-net will never change AB and HB. They simply don't want to take the time to balance the game that they screwed up.

GG all

While I'm on the topic, I figure I should talk about the party system in place as well. When AB was first introduced, people were able to enter just like Random Arenas. It did not necessitate a team of four to enter and people were placed randomly into a full team of 12.

Issues arose from this system and necessary changes were made. The issues were somewhat obvious. Kurzicks began going onto the luxon side and sacking purposely to allow the Kurzick side to win (no bios intended because Luxons did this just as much). Also, because of the 12 man teams, Aegis and Heal Party spamming Elementalists became rampant as the full party skills were incredibly overpowered at that time. It was also a lot easier for leachers to quickly jump into a match and go afk right away essentially screwing over their team and causing a lot of frustration.

A-net decided to remedy this by:
1. to solve leaching, you were required to create a party of four before entering.
2. to solve imbalanced AoEs, people stay in their parties of four.
3. I'm not really sure what solved the problem of people sacking themselves on the side they were against other than the fact that it was a waste of time.

Anyways, to get to my point, despite all of the flaws, I think we all can agree, mechanically and functionally speaking, AB was much more fun when it was first released than it is now. The idea of having epic 12v12 battles was one that the entire PvP community welcomed and embraced.

There have been many updates since the changes to AB occurred. Leaching has almost been completely wiped out due to the recently added /report ______ command. Full Party healing and protting has been nerfed to agro bubble range (or at least compass range) and are severely less powerful, so it is no longer imbalanced, and people could not exploit it in a 12v12 situation anyways.

If you haven't guessed it already, I propose that A-net brings back what everyone loved so much about AB during its release. Fix shrines, reintroduce 12 man parties, and make this game fun again.

What are your thoughts?
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
EDIT (after hearing initial reactions to the topic): I don't think you all are understanding what I'm saying when it comes to shrines.

If you want to have shrines, I'm fine with that. I personally don't want a 12v12 kill fest. Did I ever once mention having a 12v12 kill fest in my post even once. THE ANSWER IS NO.

The main thing I was suggesting is that shrines should have an indirect relationship to scoring, instead of a direct one (which is what it currently is). This concept really isn't hard to understand so please, read more carefully.

When I started talking about 12 man teams, I wasn't talking any fundamental changes to AB itself. I was merely asking for parties to not be broken up into 3 parties of four. Instead, have the party formation window display all 12 people.

People have mentioned this will reduce tactical play. This will increase tactical play. Now you are able to see where everyone else on your team is, and exactly what is being done by everyone else on your team. Monks will now be able to heal/prot people more effectively and it will be easier to locate individuals easier. This 12 man party formation window will increase the power of paragons and other full party skills. This is inevitable with this system but with recent nerfs to "effects all party members within earshot" skills, I don't think it will impact the game as much as it once did.

I hope this clarifies things and reduces the amount of posts stating, "If you want a kill fest that takes no skills, go to RA."

Kyomi Tachibana · Mar 25, 2008, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Well, when I first heard of AB, I thought that it was massive 12v12 battles, and when I did my first AB and found out it was all about capping shrines, was severely disappointed.

I think this is a good idea, shrine capping to win matches is just pure fail in my eyes.

I like the 3 teams of 4 though, it keeps from people using [insertlameteambuildhere]way, unless of course it would go back to random, if so then supposedly the new Dishonor system should help with the leechers.

/signed

Brian the Gladiator · Mar 25, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Yes Kyomi, maybe I didn't make that clear enough...

There is NO WAY that I would want to force people to sit in town and form a 12 man team to enter AB... lol

I propose it be like random arenas... basically the way it was when it was first introduced (factions preview event).

Turbobusa · Mar 25, 2008, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Please no. Capping shrine order and tactics are fun.

RiKio · Mar 25, 2008, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

Please no. Capping shrine order and tactics are fun.

Yeah, but people are retarded and only know to kill others. They think that 12vs12 is a Massive Player Killing Mode, not Hero Battles Familiar size.

I dont know if capping would be removed or not. I will wait until this thread become insteresting.

tnel28 · Mar 25, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

/sign on this 1. epic idea. when i 1st bought factions, i was under the same impression as kyomi. little did i know that it was basically a TA with other teams. Personally, I find GVG's more fun that TA's and that would sort of be what an AB would feel like, a massive, more players version of a GVG. i like the idea

Kyomi Tachibana · Mar 25, 2008, 07:26 PM // 19:26

"Alliance battles—large-scale PvP battles that allow factions to redraw the borders of the Canthan empire."

Taken directly from the official GW website, does this scream "run around and cap shrines while avoiding combat." to you? Because it doesn't to me.

KIDGOOCH · Mar 25, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Unfortunately, I completely don't understand AB and GvG, if everything was Annihilation, I would be interested in this, but to be in a grindfest battle, capping things based on where someone is standing, well basically I have neither the patience or desire to do this. I tried AB as well as HB, and going with the basic kill everything metallity, my matches lasted 20 - 30 minutes before the other person/team won, by a large margin even though my kills were triple the other teams. So removing the shrine would interest me, but maybe only for a little while.

X Ice Man X · Mar 25, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Why change something thats not broken?

If you don't like capping then Don't play AB.

If you want to run around killing things try, RA, TA, GvG, and even PvE

Bobby2 · Mar 25, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

^truth.

/notsigned

lacasner · Mar 25, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

There needs to be a proper balance of capping and killing to promote tactical and non-degenerate play. That being said, Anet doesn't care about AB, so just enjoy what you have or don't play it is my advice.

Kyomi Tachibana · Mar 25, 2008, 08:48 PM // 20:48

I don't think Anet should change AB, but instead introduce an alternate form of AB using 12v12 combat instead of shrine capping.

RiKio · Mar 25, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyomi Tachibana

I don't think Anet should change AB, but instead introduce an alternate form of AB using 12v12 combat instead of shrine capping.

Then everyone will quit 12vs12 capping

Captain Miken · Mar 25, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

tl;dr

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Ice Man X

Why change something thats not broken?

If you don't like capping then Don't play AB.

If you want to run around killing things try, RA, TA, GvG, and even PvE

Agree with this.

Turbobusa · Mar 25, 2008, 09:10 PM // 21:10

I don't think people would leave shrine capping... the only shrine capping + 12v12 form I can think of is what there was in unreal tournament, with vehicules and such. You had to capture points to continue further, in order to get in the opponent base. Multiple path were available.

As long as you keep some movement tactic in AB, i don't mind. Random rushing and kill fest, please go RA.

RiKio · Mar 25, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

RA is 4vs4, not 12vs12. People want a 12vs12 where rushing and kill fest. Also, 12vs12 has no movement tactic.

RedNova88 · Mar 25, 2008, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiKio

Then everyone will quit 12vs12 capping

Some may and some may not. I will not, I will play both. I like flat out battles with more than 8 players total and don't want to deal with the elitist GW community to get to the action, so an alternative to capping would be nice.

I like capping, I also like killing, I think it would be fitting to just add more NPCs at each shrine that will follow people, and offer short term buffs while near them so that people are still motivated to cap in order to strengthen their side. Then greatly reduce the gain from having shrines point wise, that way fighting is promoted and yet shrines are still just as important.

RiKio · Mar 25, 2008, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Ok, here is the definitive solution : If you like killing people from other faction, but dont like capping, try For Aspwanage. Is good, really, but heavily underestimated. Try it, you´ll be pleased if you like Player Killing.

Brian the Gladiator · Mar 26, 2008, 03:46 AM // 03:46

I don't think you all are understanding what I'm saying when it comes to shrines.

If you want to have shrines, I'm fine with that. I personally don't want a 12v12 kill fest. Did I ever once mention having a 12v12 kill fest in my post even once. THE ANSWER IS NO.

The main thing I was suggesting is that shrines should have an indirect relationship to scoring, instead of a direct one (which is what it currently is). This concept really isn't hard to understand so please, read more carefully.

When I started talking about 12 man teams, I wasn't talking any fundamental changes to AB itself. I was merely asking for parties to not be broken up into 3 parties of four. Instead, have the party formation window display all 12 people.

People have mentioned this will reduce tactical play. This will increase tactical play. Now you are able to see where everyone else on your team is, and exactly what is being done by everyone else on your team. Monks will now be able to heal/prot people more effectively and it will be easier to locate individuals easier. This 12 man party formation window will increase the power of paragons and other full party skills. This is inevitable with this system but with recent nerfs to "effects all party members within earshot" skills, I don't think it will impact the game as much as it once did.

I hope this clarifies things and reduces the amount of posts stating, "If you want a kill fest that takes no skills, go to RA."

^^ This will be added to the original post ^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

There needs to be a proper balance of capping and killing to promote tactical and non-degenerate play. That being said, Anet doesn't care about AB, so just enjoy what you have or don't play it is my advice.

What you say is true and exactly what I believe my suggestions will do. I also believe that A-net doesn't care about anything related to GW1 IMO. I just hope I am wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Ice Man X

Why change something thats not broken?

I believe the saying is, "Don't fix what aint broken." I also believe that is a saying that only close-minded individuals use. The reason why we change things is to improve on them. If you are correct in your way of thinking, we would all be watching black and white T.V. and listening to our 8 track tapes... need I say more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedNova88

fighting is promoted and yet shrines are still just as important.

You may be one of the only people that understood what I was trying to get across... lol. At least I know I'm not going completely crazy here. Shrines would still be vital to success, but killing would be as well. Currently, killing your opponent isn't necessary at all to win matches. All any team really cares about is capping the shrines and killing the NPCs guarding them.

I didn't want to add this because it might increase the flames on what I am suggesting but... I will do it anyways. I think it would really be interesting to give DP to those who die. Once you reach 60dp, you no longer resurrect. If every member on the opposing team has 60 dp, the game ends and you win. The other way to win is if you reach... 200??? points. I lower this because you no longer get shrine points. there will be 2 shrines near each spawn point that gives moral boosts every 2 minutes (just like GvG -- could make it more often, I am not certain on specifics). This way, it will be more difficult to 60-out 12 people. Basically, you will have to capture both moral shrines and kill each person 4+ times to win (people work off dp by killing foes so it may take even more deaths to finally 60 someone out). Feel free to comment on this as well but know that this is a side topic/thing and should not influence your opinion on the main topic. I basically am saying this as something to think about.

Turbobusa · Mar 26, 2008, 09:14 AM // 09:14

That is great...
...on paper.

If you lower the impact of shrines and make it on part with killing, that WILL turn into a kill fest.
The only thing that stops AB from being a complete one atm is that shrines are more important.
Killing is necessary from times to times to disrupt the ennemy capping routine, or to clear a path. It's just less mindless killing, and that is great.
Changing to something that promotes squirmishing, no